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That's awesome, the more I look at them, the more that the front end is growing on me. And the R1S would make a nice family car. What are they doing as far as support/service/dealership network? That would be my concern with a brand new company with a 1st vehicle. And I would like to see one in person to really see the size and feel of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's awesome, the more I look at them, the more that the front end is growing on me. And the R1S would make a nice family car. What are they doing as far as support/service/dealership network? That would be my concern with a brand new company with a 1st vehicle. And I would like to see one in person to really see the size and feel of it.
Same for me, I did not like the look of the Rivian, and still is not my favorite looking, but the utility of it, and being EV, makes up for the looks in my book. Honestly I have a Tesla Y, and that is far uglier car, but an amazing EV. Model Y is the best selling EV on the planet today, and Musk says next year might be the best selling car... period. I cannot imagine our area fitting any more model Y's, its already by far the most popular vehicle seen on the road here outside of pickups.

IMO Rivian R1S is the final death blow for which JLR will not recover. I mean you look at a Range Rover sport (we have owned a couple the last 2018 we turned back in after a few months, as the infotainment was just a joke), the Range Rover is 40% more expensive (in top trim) has less features and tech, comparable interior, horrid reliability (electronics) and maintenance requirements (I have paid for a lot of $2K brake jobs) over the years. Worse the Rivian will vastly outperform it on or off road, and likely brake pads every 100K miles. Its really hard to beat 1 motor directly driving each wheel when it comes to traction control, and regen braking. Anyone buying a Range Rover once R1S is available is just not using common sense.

As for service, its like Tesla, Rivian doing their own service, and building service centers in their strongest markets, they are also doing Mobile service. I expect initial owners are going to get treated like kings, which is how Tesla was in the beginning. It was only after Tesla started building the Model 3 in big quantities that their service dropped to awful. Unlike Tesla who builds only a few prototypes of each model and then rushes it into production and sales Rivian has spent years building prototypes, and refining their hardware (A benefit of being well financed with no pressure to rush sales) Rivian took their early prototypes to Sandy Munro, and went through them to catch mistakes, etc... Now I am sure there will be problems with early Rivian's, but no more so than Hummers which are all new to GM, and were rushed through development. I expect HummerEV will have as many or more problems initially than the Rivian, just for a lack of testing and validation time. I think Rivian will only sell initially to people close to their service centers, but once they get rolling they will be available everywhere. In my area Rivian just finished their service center (right next to the JLR store). The JLR dealer is nervous, he sees a typhoon coming. One thing I have to say for our local JLR store, they have the best hot chocolate I have ever had in their service center, I have tried it so many times... :(....
 

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There is a big discussion about his on the Rivian forums, it appears that the first deliveries may have actually went to employees. Somewhat vague and unclear, typical communications from Rivian, but there were photos of employees getting into the trucks at the factory.

"A special night with some of Rivian's earliest employees and now earliest deliveries! Some of these families have been helping build our company for over 11 years. Thanks for all the hard work and dedication." @RJScaringe
 

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I don’t get where Tom thinks Rivian is going to run off Land Rover. People drawn to Land Rover aren’t going to be swayed by the newest latest greatest tech made by a company with ZERO heritage. That isn’t the customer base.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I don’t get where Tom thinks Rivian is going to run off Land Rover. People drawn to Land Rover aren’t going to be swayed by the newest latest greatest tech made by a company with ZERO heritage. That isn’t the customer base.
You will see... The same thing was said about Tesla Model 3 taking BMW 3 series sales. Rivian targeted right at the heart of Range Rover's business, and built a better Range Rover (you will hear on the 28th, all about it). Now when I drive through the Apple or Google campus, that used to be filled with BMW 3 series and tons of M3 BMW's, guess what is there? Remember Model 3 has really only been on the market for 3 years and Y 1 year... Now, it's hard to find a new BMW 3 series in those tech campuses. You know what there are a lot of in SUV's though? Range Rovers (Next), given the chance to go EV with better reliability, and better on and off road performance, these folks are going to jump into the latest tech in a second. Then you have buy American push, and Support the next Tesla, or support a brand that is overpriced, and with the worst cost of ownership going? I think you do not know much about where Range Rovers sell in volume or of the people buying them. The one exclusion is the Defender, which are bought by enthusiasts typically, and will be loyal, but the tech folks which make up likely more than half of the RR's high end business, are going to be gone in massive volume. They don't want to get constantly embarrassed by their neighbors $75K Rivian performance and tech wise, and then have to deal with driving some of the most polluting vehicles on the road while paying $5 a gallon for gas, maybe higher. Just watch...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
There is a big discussion about his on the Rivian forums, it appears that the first deliveries may have actually went to employees. Somewhat vague and unclear, typical communications from Rivian, but there were photos of employees getting into the trucks at the factory.

"A special night with some of Rivian's earliest employees and now earliest deliveries! Some of these families have been helping build our company for over 11 years. Thanks for all the hard work and dedication." @RJScaringe
for the latest news check always check twitter.
 

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BMW drivers are NOT the same as Land Rover drivers. BMW drivers crave performance so a Tesla transition makes sense. Land Rover drivers, not as much. Also, if you think a Land Rover driver is going to be swayed to “buy American”, you are more disconnected than you realize. Finally, if you think only Defender drivers pursue heritage among the Land Rover crowd, well… good luck with that 🤣
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
BMW drivers are NOT the same as Land Rover drivers. BMW drivers crave performance so a Tesla transition makes sense. Land Rover drivers, not as much. Also, if you think a Land Rover driver is going to be swayed to “buy American”, you are more disconnected than you realize. Finally, if you think only Defender drivers pursue heritage among the Land Rover crowd, well… good luck with that 🤣
Like I said, watch the numbers in 2022, and 2023... I mean Land Rover has already been getting hit the last 2 years, but when I look at the Rover buyers in our area, they are mostly tech people, and just like the past BMW buyers, tech people want the latest tech... I think Land Rover will be the brand most impacted by Rivian R1S (and the JLR corporation is hanging on by a thread and hemorrhaging cash already), and for tech people, the heritage of Land Rover means little, just watch.... We can waste all day arguing, or just wait and see... Trade in data will be available in early 2023, and we will see. I think some Land Rover drivers want to buy American, and I think some want to go Electric, and I think some want the best available performance& tech, and I think some want a car with less maintenance. We are one family, that wanted to go Electric (and less maintenance), and we went for E-Tron, which my wife loves, said she never missed the Rover for a minute (and all the brake jobs). We know 2 of her fellow managers also left Rover for a Tesla X, so that is all 3 repeated Rover customers I knew, have all gone Electric which is a very small sample size, but I see a trend, especially on the west coast.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
They have the Rivian manual online now:


You can check out some of the advantages as well as some of the disadvantages for the Rivian over other cars if you put some time in reading it! 🤪

I don’t think it has CarPlay or Android Auto or Sirius for example so you can be limited in your musical options.
Ya, I have never used CarPlay, and after having a Tesla, I like the infotainment, and the navigation is the best I have seen (especially for trip charger routing). Rivian followed Tesla, smart.

I do not want to pay for Sirrus, so that is a plus, better to stream or play music from my phone.

Clearly Ford which has a board seat with Rivian due to their 10% investment has seen the light, huge announcement today, these EV pickups an SUV's are going to take over faster than anything thinks.
 

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I have Sirius on all my vehicles, it works without cell service. Also I use Carplay sometimes for nav if the car nav cannot find something (yes I have seen that happen). I also use it for charging Apps. Rivian is building their own charging network and do not plan to support generic plug and charge. The Ford Pass app allows charging on several networks. The My Chevy app can do this too, but you still need separate accounts, and it does not currently support EA for initiating a charge or seeing real-time status. This is an area GM needs to work on. Plugshare is another app supported by Carplay/Android and it can be very useful as well. Some people also use ABRP and that can be used with Carplay/Android if you pay a subscription.

I like having a choice and not being locked in to just what the OEM provides.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I like options: Sirius is only $5 a month when you call them. I use CarPlay daily for music and more. Occasionally I use playlists.
I have Sirius on all my vehicles, it works without cell service. Also I use Carplay sometimes for nav if the car nav cannot find something (yes I have seen that happen). I also use it for charging Apps. Rivian is building their own charging network and do not plan to support generic plug and charge. The Ford Pass app allows charging on several networks. The My Chevy app can do this too, but you still need separate accounts, and it does not currently support EA for initiating a charge or seeing real-time status. This is an area GM needs to work on. Plugshare is another app supported by Carplay/Android and it can be very useful as well. Some people also use ABRP and that can be used with Carplay/Android if you pay a subscription.

I like having a choice and not being locked in to just what the OEM provides.
All fair points. In some of the reviews it seems Rivian has the capability to add Car Play, and Android Auto, hardware is there, but Rivian strategy is to control the experience front to back, so we will have to see how it develops over time. Rivian says they will be adding apps and features monthly OTA (so what you buy is not necessarily what you end up with), and is targeting Tesla caliber of user experience, which I think is a great target.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
BMW drivers are NOT the same as Land Rover drivers. BMW drivers crave performance so a Tesla transition makes sense. Land Rover drivers, not as much. Also, if you think a Land Rover driver is going to be swayed to “buy American”, you are more disconnected than you realize. Finally, if you think only Defender drivers pursue heritage among the Land Rover crowd, well… good luck with that 🤣
I had to laugh, watching Fox Business news today, and Gary Gastelu (Fox automotive editor) who drove the R1T said

"this is a luxury model, like a land rover, and if you saw this in a land rover showroom I don't think you would even blink"

I am not the only one who sees the target Rivian is aimed at...

 

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Yeah, DeLorean had high hopes too. As you know, Tesla made most of their money from other car manufacturers buying EV credits. I just think any new company from here will struggle for significance.

Don’t give me wrong, I know Land Rover is struggling. I just I don’t see their target demographic going to a start up. Time will tell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yeah, DeLorean had high hopes to. As you know, Tesla made most of their money from other car manufacturers buying EV credits. I just think any new company from here will struggle for significance.

Don’t give me wrong, I know Land Rover is struggling. I just I don’t see their target demographic going to a start up. Time will tell.
Was Delorean backed by Amazon, and Ford, and about 10 other fortune 500 companies, and have $6B cash in the bank, a brand new 3M square foot factory, and no debt? Ya, I don't think that is a real comparison. Rivian is financially stronger then Tesla was 15 years into operations, and has built their company right. No cut corners, no hurry up engineering.

As for targeting Rover, look at the Rivian size and capability, it sized right in the middle of Land Rovers lineup, has an upscale luxury interior, and serious off road capability (watch the review videos I posted, I mean the Rivian is a serious off roader). I mentioned Range Rover initially, because we have been a Range Rover family, along with my wife's friends, several of which also were multiple range rover families. Now, its not only us, but all of the families I know are going EV, and the owner of the local JLR dealership said JLR corporate knows Rivian has them in the crosshairs (located their dealership next door). I for one a year ago was not near as bullish on Rivian, but as they have come along, and I have asked around to my industry contacts, all the suppliers love them, and are very bullish. You can also see the passion on their forums, where I have seen multiple claimed Range Rover people that are converting.

I think the struggle you expect (Production Hell) will not happen for rivian, I bet they deliver 1500 trucks by the end of the year in a nice slow and calm ramp, and then over 1500 a month the first half of 2022, and ramp to 3500 a month in the back half of 2022. In 2023 I see them ramping to 60K to 100K, and at that point they should be profitable on their operations. I am not sure what their installed capacity at Normal, IL is, but I would assume it peaks out at 150K a year in 24-7 operations.

Tesla had production hell on the Model 3 because Elon Musk lied to the public and investors when he said they were starting production in June 2017, the actual body shop equipment when he said that was still on the shop floor of Comau in Detroit, and the first Model 3's were being completely built and welded by hand. Model 3 robotic welding did not start until November 2017. You can read the book "Power Play", it goes into a lot of detail about all the drama in all of Tesla's launches. Tesla struggles with new models because of management and organizational issues, not because that is normal in the car industry.
 

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Man, that sure is a lot of typing for someone who claims he isn’t a fanboy🤣. Good luck with your investments!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Man, that sure is a lot of typing for someone who claims he isn’t a fanboy🤣. Good luck with your investments!
It is a lot of typing... Fan boy... Nah... I am a fan of EV's, and can find good and bad in all of them. More then Likely I will buy a Rivian R1S for my wife to drive daily, but investing into their IPO at an $80B valuation, Not me. 20-30B and I would be all over it, but I still think GM and Ford are the automaker's to invest into with the most upside in the next few years, and I have Lucid as a flyer (big risk, big reward).
 
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