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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
This is very interesting, motor weighs 67 lbs but generates 670 HP, 10-1 power to weight ratio. Not traditional Hairpin, and not traditional Wire Wound

@HumBucker Why is GM's Ultium drive system not this efficient and compact? GM's best motor weighs more and only makes 350 hp, might even cost more to make since extra weight is usually extra $$. This thinking requires inventing new production systems, and thinking outside the box, things GM does not seem to be capable of for whatever reason? GM is full of Lazy engineers (and managers) that prefer to just refine existing technology, no thinking outside the box, and truly new invention.

Love Peter bashing on Tesla Plaid and Porsche Taycan motors...
 

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@HumBucker Why is GM's Ultium drive system not this efficient and compact? GM's best motor weighs more and only makes 350 hp, might even cost more to make since extra weight is usually extra $$. This thinking requires inventing new production systems, and thinking outside the box, things GM does not seem to be capable of for whatever reason? GM is full of Lazy engineers (and managers) that prefer to just refine existing technology, no thinking outside the box, and truly new invention.

Love Peter bashing on Tesla Plaid and Porsche Taycan motors...
GMs design had different specifications. GM wanted to design 5 drivetrains and 3 motors to be used in a host of vehicles. Lucid designed for one. You can't judge one design better than another without knowing cost, capability, manufacturability and durability. Lucid has no plans on making a $30k vehicle that uses the same motor technology.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
GMs design had different specifications. GM wanted to design 5 drive units and 3 motors to be used in a host of vehicles. Lucid designed for one. You can't judge one design better than another without knowing cost, capability, manufacturability and durability. Lucid has no plans on making a $30k vehicle that uses the same motor technology.
Totally fair comment, but why not design one great drive unit that works in nearly all applications (front and rear the same)? Because a motor "can make" 670 HP does not mean you have that in every vehicle, that is all inverter tuning. In the Lucid they have a 2 motor car with 600-1111HP, and a 3 motor with >1200HP, its all inverter tuning, how much they want to push the motor in each application.

I have to say on the Lucid, having the differential before the gear reduction is very smart, see how small that differential is? Check out the front differential in the Hummer, that is capable of half the power and torque... The front box on the Hummer likely weighs twice what the Lucid drive unit does, and all that for half the power potential.

GM is using little league level engineering, Lucid is using engineering first principals, at lucid the CEO of the company is driving engineering greatness. Its not just talk, it makes a difference. GM could run Lucid's drive unit in every application, then tune the software for power levels. GM engineering is just lazy, not breaking any new ground. As for cost, making bigger drive units that take more space and are heavier (less efficient) hurts everything about the vehicle, weight is the enemy of performance. Space in the front of vehicles for Frunk's would be nice, and Efficient powertrains help you get more range with smaller battery packs. It's a win win win for the customer to have better technology. Mary Barry needs to drive down into her engineering ranks for the best... not to be an also ran in EV's, and Lyriq weighting 6000 lbs is not the best, no frunk, mediocre range, and slow car is not the best at anything. Jason Camissa got it right, traditional OEM's approach EV's with old school thinking, and are not capable of re-inventing the automobile the way companies like Lucid, Tesla, and to a lesser extent Rivian is doing. These start ups are so far ahead of GM on Technology, and it seems GM is just giving up, not even trying to be best in class on important EV metrics? Range, Charging Speed (range added per minute), efficiency.

 

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Totally fair comment, but why not design one great drive unit that works in nearly all applications (front and rear the same)? Because a motor "can make" 670 HP does not mean you have that in every vehicle, that is all inverter tuning. In the Lucid they have a 2 motor car with 600-1111HP, and a 3 motor with >1200HP, its all inverter tuning, how much they want to push the motor in each application.
I will say it again. If you're trying to manage cost, complexity, repairability, reusability GMs approach makes perfect sense. GM will be able to make millions of their units. Looking at how Lucid cools the motor it's a lot more complex than GMs solution. GM directly cools the end of the pins whereas Lucid runs channels alongside the pins.

Lucid did some great engineering for a car they are having issues getting out the door. Granted it might not necessarily be drivetrain related.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I will say it again. If you're trying to manage cost, complexity, repairability, reusability GMs approach makes perfect sense. GM will be able to make millions of their units. Looking at how Lucid cools the motor it's a lot more complex than GMs solution. GM directly cools the end of the pins whereas Lucid runs channels alongside the pins.

Lucid did some great engineering for a car they are having issues getting out the door. Granted it might not necessarily be drivetrain related.
What are you talking about? Lucid has delivered more cars than GM has Hummer EV's, and Lucid Air is not only a new car with new technology, Its a new company. Stumbles are expected, and stumbling with production is deflecting from the topic, the Lucid motor is more efficient, holds power longer (Hummer de-rates after 4-5 seconds). Lucid pulls laps on the track with no de-rate of power, so their cooling system trumps GM. Lucid Air is also the most efficient EV made, 4.5 miles per kWh, GM having trouble getting 3 miles per kWh from Lyriq, and that is with RWD, and very low power.

GM technology is also ran, not class leading in anything. Hummer EV drive units are weak, loose, heavy, inefficient when compared to Lucid's. GM also cannot draw the power from their battery pack the way Lucid can. Lucid Air pulls more juice from a 118 kWh pack than GM can get from a 212 kWh pack, and Lucid can make a lap on the track. GM made some mistakes un Ultium, if they were going for class leading, they are behind not just Lucid, but all the front runners, even Hyundai/Kia when it comes to charging, and ability to draw current from smaller packs. (C-rate) . I see Ultium batteries as ok so far for bigger vehicles and large packs, but when scaled down they suck, cells are too big, and therefore not enough parallel cells in the pack to draw current from, and cannot put all the cells in series, or there is no parallel cells for redundancy of the pack.

On your first point, if you are building a million motors, the cost to manufacture Lucid's is not much more than GM's if any? and if its lighter and more efficient you can remove some battery cells saving even more weight and get the same range. GM has a problem with leadership, I am not sure Mary knows what best in class is, or she should be down in the engineering department asking some tough questions. If Mary was a good leader, she would be driving the best, and pushing her engineers to meet the same qualities and cost. To win in EV's its all about efficiency, so you use less battery cells to go further, That's why Tesla is winning so big. Tesla total cost to build an EV today is $36K, and they sell their EV's for $60K average. They are making iPhone gross margins on cars, why? because their cars are relatively cheap to build and sell for a lot, you make an EV cheap to build by getting the range the customer wants with a smaller battery pack. period...
 

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Rawlinson is a real engineer and memorizing to listen to.
They also have extensive experience with formula E racing.

When people talk about a cars "technology" this is what that should really mean. Not an infotainment screen to play games with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Rawlinson is a real engineer and memorizing to listen to.
They also have extensive experience with formula E racing.

When people talk about a cars "technology" this is what that should really mean. Not an infotainment screen to play games with.
Agree, Rawlinson is a real engineer, and Lucid has dug deep with their car technology, whether they will be a business success is not known, I would put odds at less then 50%, but their technology is impressive and others should be paying attention to the high water mark. If I was running GM I would be looking at all the best technologies, and asking for detailed explanations inside as to why ours is not as good?
 

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Agree, Rawlinson is a real engineer, and Lucid has dug deep with their car technology, whether they will be a business success is not known, I would put odds at less then 50%, but their technology is impressive and others should be paying attention to the high water mark. If I was running GM I would be looking at all the best technologies, and asking for detailed explanations inside as to why ours is not as good?
I think you're discounting GMs engineering. Without knowing the requirements for Lucid or GMs design you can't judge how good they are. GM plans on making millions of their motors and selling vehicles from $30k-$200k+. GMs units are larger and probably heavier. But that could be a design tradeoff for easier to building.

It would be interesting for GM to do a like video explaining the choices they made, but they have no reason to ever do such a video.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I think you're discounting GMs engineering. Without knowing the requirements for Lucid or GMs design you can't judge how good they are. GM plans on making millions of their motors and selling vehicles from $30k-$200k+. GMs units are larger and probably heavier. But that could be a design tradeoff for easier to building.

It would be interesting for GM to do a like video explaining the choices they made, but they have no reason to ever do such a video.
Ahh, come on man, don't be suck a homer boy, it's embarrassing. Rawlinson getting over 500 miles of range, over 300 kW charging, and over 1200 HP out of a 118 kWh battery, GM is not even close, and still in Little League when it comes to EV technology, they have not even caught up to Tesla yet, then its another magnitude past that to catch up to Lucid.

GM's Ultium technology is about getting cost down and scale up, but GM will keep losing to companies like Tesla and Ford (future products) because GM does not even realize how far behind they actually are yet. You may be surprised that I included Ford, but its because Ford knows their current EV's are crap, but will not make the same mistakes on the next ones, you can count on that, Thats why Doug Field is in charge of all EV development at Ford, he led the engineering team on Tesla 3, and Y, he knows the target, and what is possible. Ford will put out EV's that appeal to a broad market, have less EV's than GM but each one will be better engineered and optimized for mass scale. GM is wasting a lot of money doing 30 top hats, that's a lot of stamping dies and body shops to make cars that none of them stack up to Model Y which came out in 2019. On the motors, GM is just lazy, not breaking any new design ground, but just trying to refine their old technology then have a giant batter pack on it to make up for the poor engineering. Comparing Blazer to Model Y, similar size, range, and power (model Y has more cargo space, and frunk, but in a shorter overall length), but Blazer weighs 6000 lbs, and has a 107 kWh battery, Model Y weighs 4400 lbs, and has 75 kWh battery, meaning Blazer is going to cost more to make, cost more to own. Model Y from 2019 will charge faster, and be more efficient, this is where GM is getting it wrong. They need to focus on making a better model Y, as Model Y currently outsells all their EV's globally, and that is even if you include the deathtrap mini EV from China. Right now it costs Tesla $35K per car to make, GM is not even close to that, nor will they be anytime soon. Take Tesla's total cost of goods divided by the number of cars they build, that means they are building their EV's for less money than anyone else, and have lot of room to reduce price if they are in a tough market, GM selling all their EV's at a loss, no room to drop prices.
 
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