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Hummer EV Ultium Batteries VS New Solid State Batteries

3515 Views 12 Replies 9 Participants Last post by BahamaTodd, May 6, 2021

John Arnaut

Discussion Starter · Apr 27, 2021

Just a question

I know the EV is about 2 years away and GM has invested so much money into the Ultium batteries, but I just wonder if the new EV auto industry is going to end up like high tech computers, as soon as you buy it, it is obsolete - I would hate to sink 100K in to a new EV and then in 2 years they come out with new batteries (looks like the new tech is solid state batteries)

SO now the 2026 HEV has 2 to 3 times the range and can charge in 30 minutes to 80% and don't have all if the issues the lithium ion (long charge times and FIRES) - now you can't even trade in your new 2 year old HEV in because it has the older battiers and no one wants it - that would suck

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Tom E-Tron

· #2 · Apr 27, 2021

John Arnaut said:
Just a question

I know the EV is about 2 years away and GM has invested so much money into the Ultium batteries, but I just wonder if the new EV auto industry is going to end up like high tech computers, as soon as you buy it, it is obsolete - I would hate to sink 100K in to a new EV and then in 2 years they come out with new batteries (looks like the new tech is solid state batteries)

SO now the 2026 HEV has 2 to 3 times the range and can charge in 30 minutes to 80% and don't have all if the issues the lithium ion (long charge times and FIRES) - now you can't even trade in your new 2 year old HEV in because it has the older battiers and no one wants it - that would suck

Of course batteries will progress every year, and vehicles will get better and more capable. GM has already said the 2nd Ultium plant (Spring Hill) will use different chemistries and processes than the Ultium 1 (Lordstown) so they are planning continued development.

Its like an iPhone, you need an iPhone and buy one knowing next years model will be better in many ways. Same with an ICE car, they get more power, or better transmissions every cycle.

As for the 2026 HEV being more capable that is likely, but the jump will not be 2X or 3X, and likely not Solid State since that is not the direction GM is going .

If a car or any product meets your needs now and in the future it does not become obsolete, just that better is available does not make past products obsolete if they still meet your needs.

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Inline

· #3 · Apr 27, 2021

I had a reservation for over 2 years for the Rivian R1T and decided to wait for the Hummer EV. Now I want the Hummer EV SUV which is even a longer wait. I did reserve both. I'm a little older than probably most of the members here. My wife is getting a good chuckle. Time is not on my side. As far as PC's it was always about speed. Always the next one and the speed never meant anything to me but I did get caught up in it. I bought a Bolt to cure the itch 6 months ago and it helped. Now my 911 sits except for a drive to Vegas. Kingman just opened EA so I may not even drive the Porsche much. If these are my only issues in life I'm blessed.

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StillHummer

· #4 · Apr 28, 2021

Inline said:
I had a reservation for over 2 years for the Rivian R1T and decided to wait for the Hummer EV. Now I want the Hummer EV SUV which is even a longer wait. I did reserve both. I'm a little older than probably most of the members here. My wife is getting a good chuckle. Time is not on my side. As far as PC's it was always about speed. Always the next one and the speed never meant anything to me but I did get caught up in it. I bought a Bolt to cure the itch 6 months ago and it helped. Now my 911 sits except for a drive to Vegas. Kingman just opened EA so I may not even drive the Porsche much. If these are my only issues in life I'm blessed.

Keep up the passion, @Inline. Not only will you get that Hummer in your driveway, but you'll get many, many miles under your belt. Time isn't the issue as much as how you use it. Stay well, brother.

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Shaved Ice

· #5 · Apr 28, 2021

I worked with the R&D folks for Special Operations just before I retired. Most technologies are 4-5 generations ahead of what they sell to the public. This is how companies stay in business. There will ALWAYS be a new “bigger/better/faster/more”. These same companies, including GM, use the latest advertising advancements to convince you psychologically that you “need” their latest offering.

As far as the developing technology that is battery powered vehicles. Now that we have reached the range of a full tank of gas, I think EVs will hold more residual value than previous models. I read recently that EVs in Europe have a better resale value than ICE vehicles.

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Benb007

· #6 · Apr 28, 2021

Shaved Ice said:
As far as the developing technology that is battery powered vehicles. Now that we have reached the range of a full tank of gas, I think EVs will hold more residual value than previous models. I read recently that EVs in Europe have a better resale value than ICE vehicles.

I read somewhere that a few of the city centers in Europe (at least in the UK) are zero emission zones. Given that one literally would not be able to legally drive in a city center without an EV would explain the higher demand. It also explains why JLR (and probably more manufacturers) has more PHEV models in Europe.

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Oakwood

· #7 · Apr 28, 2021

John Arnaut said:
Just a question

I know the EV is about 2 years away and GM has invested so much money into the Ultium batteries, but I just wonder if the new EV auto industry is going to end up like high tech computers, as soon as you buy it, it is obsolete - I would hate to sink 100K in to a new EV and then in 2 years they come out with new batteries (looks like the new tech is solid state batteries)

SO now the 2026 HEV has 2 to 3 times the range and can charge in 30 minutes to 80% and don't have all if the issues the lithium ion (long charge times and FIRES) - now you can't even trade in your new 2 year old HEV in because it has the older battiers and no one wants it - that would suck

What I hope for its OTA updates that can help extend the life of older EVS with efficiency/range.

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Tom E-Tron

· #8 · Apr 28, 2021 (Edited)

Oakwood said:
What I hope for its OTA updates that can help extend the life of older EVS with efficiency/range.

Batteries degrade over time, no way around that, and new battery tech gets better, no way around that either. As long as the current EV meets your needs, it's good enough, its the same decision we make when we buy any car, phone, TV, video game console, etc. GM has already said they will make their next gen battery cells plug and play with the Ultium system, meaning in 10 years if our Hummer range is lagging, we can upgrade just the cells if we want to. Still, this will not be a cheap upgrade, but possible. GM even stated you will be able to upgrade just a few modules and the BMS can adjust to that. Pretty cool tech... See 30 minutes into this video... https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/cep23mxz Poor Tesla customers have no way to upgrade, their new cells are not interchangeable with legacy cells, and the new cars are basically throw a ways with the cells solidly glues into the structure. No way to repair or replace.

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MojoMonkey

· #9 · Apr 28, 2021

Earlier Tesla battery packs were designed so that they could be opened and individual batteries could be exchanged. Not the case anymore. They’re still designed to be easily recycled, perhaps even more so now than in the past, but that recycle/ reclamation process is destructive. The newer pack designs are “structural” and the cells are fixed into place to build up on the structural nature of the battery. This was the reasoning behind Tesla’s adoption of the trapezoidal cell design used in the Chinese pack production. They are not adopting the trapezoidal design for other markets, it didn’t offer any real advantage in practice. And while the interchangeable packs theoretically allow for upgrades, Tesla has never offered this, even though it’s been teased as a possibility. It’s not true that the cells or battery packs are glued into the structure of the car, yet it seems to be a rumor that some media outlets have latched onto since they are unwilling to understand the nature of the structural pack. Nope, packs are still interchangeable. I even got to witness a pack swap on a Model Y a few weeks ago.

GM has designed their packs to be field-serviceable. Sure they can swap the whole thing, but at the dealer service center level, pack repairs will constitute swapping out the individual interior blocks or modules. Even Tesla packs still needed to go back to the factory in the old days to be refurbished. At the service center level, Tesla has always been a full pack swap.

Tesla’s constant hardware evolution would make it mostly impossible to upgrade to newer/ better battery packs anyway. That’s also a big reason we sold our 2016 Model X... No way to upgrade the tech in the car, and not only that, a simple fender bender would almost certainly mean the car is totaled at this point. No replacement parts available without salvaging them. Even simple things like the new wiring harness and sensor group for the front and rear bumpers are not compatible with prior models. Tesla is finally making spare parts for their cars, but barely what they need and there’s no stockpile of anything. It’s a 3 week wait to get a bumper or body panel for a Model 3 or Y. Not even sure about a S or X after they shut down and retooled for the updated models. If you have a 2015 Model S that needs a new rear bumper, you’re SOL and will have better luck on eBay... Probaby now true if you have a 2020 Model S.

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Tom E-Tron

· #10 · Apr 28, 2021

MojoMonkey said:
Earlier Tesla battery packs were designed so that they could be opened and individual batteries could be exchanged. Not the case anymore. They’re still designed to be easily recycled, perhaps even more so now than in the past, but that recycle/ reclamation process is destructive. The newer pack designs are “structural” and the cells are fixed into place to build up on the structural nature of the battery. This was the reasoning behind Tesla’s adoption of the trapezoidal cell design used in the Chinese pack production. They are not adopting the trapezoidal design for other markets, it didn’t offer any real advantage in practice. And while the interchangeable packs theoretically allow for upgrades, Tesla has never offered this, even though it’s been teased as a possibility. It’s not true that the cells or battery packs are glued into the structure of the car, yet it seems to be a rumor that some media outlets have latched onto since they are unwilling to understand the nature of the structural pack. Nope, packs are still interchangeable. I even got to witness a pack swap on a Model Y a few weeks ago.

GM has designed their packs to be field-serviceable. Sure they can swap the whole thing, but at the dealer service center level, pack repairs will constitute swapping out the individual interior blocks or modules. Even Tesla packs still needed to go back to the factory in the old days to be refurbished. At the service center level, Tesla has always been a full pack swap.

Tesla’s constant hardware evolution would make it mostly impossible to upgrade to newer/ better battery packs anyway. That’s also a big reason we sold our 2016 Model X... No way to upgrade the tech in the car, and not only that, a simple fender bender would almost certainly mean the car is totaled at this point. No replacement parts available without salvaging them. Even simple things like the new wiring harness and sensor group for the front and rear bumpers are not compatible with prior models. Tesla is finally making spare parts for their cars, but barely what they need and there’s no stockpile of anything. It’s a 3 week wait to get a bumper or body panel for a Model 3 or Y. Not even sure about a S or X after they shut down and retooled for the updated models. If you have a 2015 Model S that needs a new rear bumper, you’re SOL and will have better luck on eBay... Probaby now true if you have a 2020 Model S.

The Model 3-Y with 2170 batteries are NOT Structural Packs, and in fact were not even calculated into the structural performance of the vehicle chassis. This surprised Sandy Munro on both the 3 and Y teardown that Tesla did not use the pack housing as a structural member and instead is just along for the ride (BMW I3, and Bolt both use the battery pack as a structural member to help stiffen the chassis). The 2170 cells in 3 and Y are bonded in place, and the pack is filled with a type of foam, servicing specific cells is basically impossible. The Future packs for Cybertruck, and Model Y with 4680 batteries are totally different and the cells are glued in with a top and bottom shear plate with structural adhesive, and the battery can IS used as a structural member of the car in the shear axis.

GM designed their pack to be serviceable, and future upgradable, Tesla is building throw a way batteries that will be a PITA to recycle, I prefer GM's approach, as i have seen many Tesla's get new battery packs in the past, some more then 1. Shoot Bjorn Nyland's first 2 Tesla's both had to have battery pack replacements S and X....

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John Arnaut

Discussion Starter · #11 · Apr 29, 2021

Good points, just concerned the the new way to go in the soon future will be solid state batteries, better range and 80% charging in 10 minutes

japans government just invested 2 trillion Yen in Toyota & Nissan for development on solid state batteries - i think that is the new system that will change everything for EVs

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Tom E-Tron

· #12 · Apr 29, 2021

John Arnaut said:
Good points, just concerned the the new way to go in the soon future will be solid state batteries, better range and 80% charging in 10 minutes

japans government just invested 2 trillion Yen in Toyota & Nissan for development on solid state batteries - i think that is the new system that will change everything for EVs

Solid State batteries might reach production this decade, and they might not. I would not hold my breath... Sometimes things that work in a lab setting never do make it to mass production for a multitude of reasons. You are also not taking into account where the charging infrastructure is to charge at the rates you are "dreaming" about. Charging over 350 kW has a whole series of other issues for the grid, and charge stations operators will get hammered with demand spike charges (this is already an issue for Electrify America as can be seen in their quarterly report)

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BahamaTodd

· #13 · May 6, 2021

The next generation of Ultium is called Ultium 2.0 and is due around 2025. It uses a conventional lithium ion battery with an anode made of very thin lithium metal (vs the graphite that is usually used). This gives more room for other materials and results in about 50% improvement in energy density over Ultium 1.0.

GM will build a manufacturing prototyping line in 2023:
GM Targets Range and Battery Cost Improvements to Accelerate All-Electric Future

More about the technology here at SES which has partnered with GM for Ultium 2.0:
The SES Li-Metal Technology

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