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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Wow, I am really surprised and impressed with Fords, F150 lightning offering, an EV pickup nearly anyone can afford, looks great specs are not bad, but the pricing is aggressive... Cannot wait to see the Silverado EV, and what GM can do to compete.
 

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I have to be honest some of my enthusiasm for the hummer has been lost based on what we've learned about payload and vehicle weight. It may not be a functional alternative for me. The Ford seems promising and for the 100 refundable deposit I just put one down. Now I need to ponder what I really want / need from this vehicle purchase. I still can't get past how much I like the look on the hummer. However, has GM missed on their battery design based on what we see from Ford?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have to be honest some of my enthusiasm for the hummer has been lost based on what we've learned about payload and vehicle weight. It may not be a functional alternative for me. The Ford seems promising and for the 100 refundable deposit I just put one down. Now I need to ponder what I really want / need from this vehicle purchase. I still can't get past how much I like the look on the hummer. However, has GM missed on their battery design based on what we see from Ford?
The Jury is still out, I thought Ford would muff the F150 Lighting when I saw they are using their regular chassis and converting it to EV, but after hearing the weight of the Hummer I am wondering if GM made the right choice to go all new chassis. Now, that being said, GM has not introduced the Silverado Ev yet, so we have not seen their entry level options, but I think Ford definitely ratchet up the pressure on GM. I also hear Tesla is building their prototype Cybertruck's now and so we will get to see what it really looks like, and real specs soon. I expect Tesla will fire back at Ford, which might make it interesting for GM. I always prefer to buy GM, but I will not buy a less capable EV just to be loyal, loyalty does not go that far.
 

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The Jury is still out, I thought Ford would muff the F150 Lighting when I saw they are using their regular chassis and converting it to EV, but after hearing the weight of the Hummer I am wondering if GM made the right choice to go all new chassis. Now, that being said, GM has not introduced the Silverado Ev yet, so we have not seen their entry level options, but I think Ford definitely ratchet up the pressure on GM. I also hear Tesla is building their prototype Cybertruck's now and so we will get to see what it really looks like, and real specs soon. I expect Tesla will fire back at Ford, which might make it interesting for GM. I always prefer to buy GM, but I will not buy a less capable EV just to be loyal, loyalty does not go that far.
finally seeing all these choices is creating real competition. We, the consumers, should start to reap the benefits over the next several years. I’m truly hoping the weight specs are wrong on the hummer, they appear almost ludicrous.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
finally seeing all these choices is creating real competition. We, the consumers, should start to reap the benefits over the next several years. I’m truly hoping the weight specs are wrong on the hummer, they appear almost ludicrous.
Ford is also going to announce a battery manufacturing partnership with SK innovation today, they are making the right moves...

The Hummer weight was confirmed by GMC, its real.. I think GMC tried to make the Hummer do too much (3000lb battery pack), and was not disciplined at controlling mass. Although the Hummer is good looking, and filled with Tech, it's going to take a beating in the public for its over indulgence, and undisciplined use of resources. GM should have launched a more efficient model first as the whole green thing might blow up in their face as reviewers test the Hummer and rip it on efficiency.. Its quite predictable how this will go down.
 

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Ford is also going to announce a battery manufacturing partnership with SK innovation today, they are making the right moves...

The Hummer weight was confirmed by GMC, its real.. I think GMC tried to make the Hummer do too much (3000lb battery pack), and was not disciplined at controlling mass. Although the Hummer is good looking, and filled with Tech, it's going to take a beating in the public for its over indulgence, and undisciplined use of resources. GM should have launched a more efficient model first as the whole green thing might blow up in their face as reviewers test the Hummer and rip it on efficiency.. Its quite predictable how this will go down.
They announced it this morning. they're calling the partnership BlueOvalSK

  • Ford and SK Innovation today announce they have signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for a joint venture – to be called BlueOvalSK – to manufacture battery cells and arrays in the U.S.
  • BlueOvalSK to produce approximately 60 gigawatt hours (GWh) annually with potential to expand, starting mid-decade
  • By 2030, Ford expects annual energy demand for its vehicles will be up to 140 GWh annually in North America and up to 240 GWh globally; the company has invested in and is working with a number of battery suppliers to secure capacity and scale delivery for next-generation Ford and Lincoln battery electric vehicles
  • The BlueOvalSK MoU builds on Ford’s recently announced investments to accelerate R&D of battery technology and manufacturing – including a new global battery center of excellence and an additional investment in a solid-state battery startup

DEARBORN, Mich., May 20, 2021 – Ford and SK Innovation announced today they have signed an MoU to create a joint venture – to be called BlueOvalSK – to produce approximately 60 GWh annually in traction battery cells and array modules, starting mid-decade, with potential to expand.

"This MoU is just the start; it’s a key part of our plan to vertically integrate key capabilities that will differentiate Ford far into the future,” said Jim Farley, Ford president and CEO. “We will not cede our future to anyone else.”

“We are delighted to be entering into collaboration with Ford, America’s leading and iconic automaker. Ford is one of the most active players in vehicle electrification today. We are proud to be opening this new chapter in their long history,” said Kim Jun, SK Innovation CEO & President. “Our JV with Ford will play a pivotal role in fleshing out the electric vehicle value chain in the United States, a key objective of the current U.S. administration.”

The creation of the JV is subject to definitive agreements, regulatory approvals and other conditions. Next-gen cells and arrays will be used to power several future Ford battery electric vehicles.

“Through the JV, Ford and SKI will jointly develop and industrialize battery cells at scale that are tailored to deliver optimum performance and value for our Ford and Lincoln customers,” said Lisa Drake, Ford’s North America chief operating officer. “SKI is an important partner in helping deliver batteries with better range and value for our fully electric vehicles by mid-decade.”

Ford’s global BEV plan calls for at least 240 gigawatt hours (GWh) of battery cell capacity by 2030 – roughly 10 plants’ worth of capacity. Approximately 140 GWh will be required in North America, with the balance dedicated to other key regions, including Europe and China.

“Global automakers have praised SK Innovations’ EV batteries for their safety, high capacity and long life,” said Jee Dong-seob, Head of SK Innovation’s Battery Business. “SK Innovation will be supplying batteries for the fully electric version of Ford’s legendary and best-selling F-150 pickup truck. We are thrilled to be supporting the electrification of a vehicle that represents the very best of American automaking.”

SK Innovation is a global energy conglomerate headquartered in Seoul, South Korea. The company has pioneered the development of mid- to large-size EV batteries since 1991 and has expanded its battery operations globally since 2010. SK already operates a battery plant in Commerce, Georgia, USA – serving two global OEMs – and is expanding its production capacity in the European Union and China. SK Innovation plans to become one of the world’s top three EV battery suppliers by 2025 with over 125 GWh in global production capacity.

SK Innovation has specialized in the development and commercialization of high-nickel NCM battery technology. The company developed the world’s first NCM-811 battery in 2016 and continued to innovate and to develop the world’s first Nickel 9 battery that will be mass produced in the U.S., powering Ford’s F-150 Lightning.

Ford gaining EV momentum

Ford plans to lead the electric vehicle revolution – including by delivering fifth-generation lithium ion batteries as well as preparing for the transition to solid-state batteries, which promise longer range, lower cost and safer EVs for customers.

Ford this year announced its commitment to invest at least $22 billion through 2025 to deliver connected, all-electric vehicles, building on its areas of strength, starting with EV versions of its most popular nameplates – including Mustang Mach-E, E-Transit and F-150 Lightning.

To support its longer-term battery plans, Ford is investing in battery R&D. Last month, Ford announced a new global battery center of excellence – named Ford Ion Park – to accelerate its battery and battery cell technology R&D – including future battery manufacturing.

Ford is building on nearly two decades of battery expertise by centralizing a cross-functional team of 150 experts in battery technology development, research, manufacturing, planning, purchasing, quality and finance to help Ford more quickly develop and manufacture battery cells and batteries, ultimately aiming to deliver more, even better, lower cost EVs for customers.

The Ford Ion Park team already is underway. In addition, a $185 million collaborative learning lab in Southeast Michigan that is dedicated to developing, testing and building vehicle battery cells and cell arrays opens late next year.

Earlier this month, Ford also announced it is growing its investment in Solid Power, an industry-leading producer of all-solid-state batteries for EVs. Initially investing in Solid Power in 2019, Ford is making an additional equity investment to help accelerate further development of solid-state vehicle battery technology, contributing to a $130 million Series B investment round in which the BMW Group becomes an equal equity owner with Ford.

Solid-state batteries are showing great promise. They don’t use the liquid electrolyte found in conventional lithium-ion batteries, can be lighter, with greater energy density and provide more range and lower cost. They also can be made on today’s lithium-ion battery lines, allowing Ford to reuse about 70 percent of its capital investment in lithium-ion manufacturing lines.

Proven electrification expertise

SK Innovation has a spotless health and safety record and has not registered a single EV battery-related fire.

Ford has been actively involved in battery research and electric vehicles, starting with Henry Ford and Thomas Edison. To date, the company has secured more than 2,500 U.S. patents in electrification technologies, with another 4,300 patents pending.

Since 2004, Ford has sold more than 1 million hybrids, plug-in hybrids and all-electric vehicles and integrated four generations of batteries into its vehicles. By year-end, the company will be manufacturing electrified vehicles and supporting technologies at more than 15 powertrain and vehicle assembly plants globally.

Ford has assembled hybrid battery packs and electric motors in Michigan since 2012. That same year, Ford invested $135 million to design, engineer and produce these components for hybrids. It included a combined 170 jobs at the Rawsonville plant to assemble batteries and VanDyke Transmission plant to assemble e-motors, plus hiring more than 50 electric vehicle engineers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

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GM isn't in a bad spot, they have announced the Silverado EV and their customer base will wait a bit. In some ways it puts them in position to launch with updated batteries and ensure they have better range. They will have to match closely on base features and price and I bet Silverado EV will have a < $40K base configuration as well. I need a new truck relatively soon, within the next year, so I can't wait for Silverado.

The reality is I’m probably spending $85 to $120 K on a new truck and it’s going to be which one gives me the best combination of features I want. Hummer EV, Lightning or Cybertruck. None are perfect, none have all the features I want. Ultimately, I want the Hummer EV with a 6ft bed, 3000lb cargo capacity and 12,000lb tow capacity, 400+ mile range while towing a 6000lb trailer. Might have to spend less now on the Ford and be happy waiting for round 2 of the EV trucks to truly deliver.

Ford’s smaller battery setup within the frame was a reasonable compromise to range for price and to facilitate simple transition of the F-150 body. And hey, they can still mount a spare in the usual spot. ;)
 

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Ultimately, I want the Hummer EV with a 6ft bed, 3000lb cargo capacity and 12,000lb tow capacity, 400+ mile range while towing a 6000lb trailer.
You will be waiting a long time for this type of truck.

For me, I have short range towing needs and either Rivian or Hummer, or even F-150 would work for that. I pull a 5000lb boat to a lake that is 35 miles from my house. About once a year I go to a lake that is 75 miles away, but could still make that. For long range towing, such as a big travel trailer or toy hauler, I think a diesel is still the only thing that really works well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
GM isn't in a bad spot, they have announced the Silverado EV and their customer base will wait a bit. In some ways it puts them in position to launch with updated batteries and ensure they have better range. They will have to match closely on base features and price and I bet Silverado EV will have a < $40K base configuration as well. I need a new truck relatively soon, within the next year, so I can't wait for Silverado.

The reality is I’m probably spending $85 to $120 K on a new truck and it’s going to be which one gives me the best combination of features I want. Hummer EV, Lightning or Cybertruck. None are perfect, none have all the features I want. Ultimately, I want the Hummer EV with a 6ft bed, 3000lb cargo capacity and 12,000lb tow capacity, 400+ mile range while towing a 6000lb trailer. Might have to spend less now on the Ford and be happy waiting for round 2 of the EV trucks to truly deliver.

Ford’s smaller battery setup within the frame was a reasonable compromise to range for price and to facilitate simple transition of the F-150 body. And hey, they can still mount a spare in the usual spot. ;)
The GM will have better range, as they have space to stuff in the 200 kWh battery, and I much prefer a GM product, so I am excited that Ford put the pressure on them... But I do not want the Chevy, rather have GMC EV... The Hummer is so appealing, but if I buy the I need a second truck to do work.
 

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I don’t need any towing capacity. I’m unhappy with the hummer payload. I just want a good range, fun truck so I can retire and take a tour of the US in an electric SUV/SUT/PU.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I don’t need any towing capacity. I’m unhappy with the hummer payload. I just want a good range, fun truck so I can retire and take a tour of the US in an electric SUV/SUT/PU.
For your use, that is the biggest problem with the Hummer EV, it might get a range rating of 350 miles on the EPA test, but with all that mass, off road tires, and poor aerodynamics, when you go faster then 55 mph that 350 mile range will plummet, and in mountainous terrain its not going to be pleasing. I would guess at 80 mph the 350 mile range becomes somewhere around 200 + or -, and 80 mph in the cold weather, worse.

I mean the Hummer is a hella cool ride, but but but... not at all practical. With EV's the current battery energy density is just a buzz kill for anything cool, that's why all the Tesla's are teardrop shaped and have funny looking front ends.
 

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You will be waiting a long time for this type of truck.
Hmmm... Perhaps. I think it is till a wait, but will be here before we realize it. The Ford ticks all the boxes except range. Cargo capacity is a touch low, but I also trust that I can push it a bit the couple times I will in the time I own it. I’ve owned dozens of fleet and personal trucks and that’s the one thing Ford and GM/Chevy do best — build them tough and rate them conservatively. It really comes down to range while towing when I’m out of town. I don’t want to own two trucks so I have one to drive daily and another to take into the mountains or camping.

My fleet sales guys think the rating on the Hummer EV is way low and conservative. They’re saying 1450lb cargo capacity to keep the listed GVWR under 10,500. At > 10,500 the truck needs extra DOT tags even if owned and operated personally in most places. In reality the thing is a beast and will almost certainly handle a lot more. ...in theory. Still some questions watching all the videos of the truck accelerating and the rear squat as it happens. They’re probably leaving the rear suspension soft in WTF mode to maximize HP to the road... hopefully.

Tow capacity and range are still my number one concern with the Hummer. I need a legit 200 miles with the trailer to make the truck viable for about 15% of my driving. Daily driving it around town most of the time is a non-issue with range, trailer or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hmmm... Perhaps. I think it is till a wait, but will be here before we realize it. The Ford ticks all the boxes except range. Cargo capacity is a touch low, but I also trust that I can push it a bit the couple times I will in the time I own it. I’ve owned dozens of fleet and personal trucks and that’s the one thing Ford and GM/Chevy do best — build them tough and rate them conservatively. It really comes down to range while towing when I’m out of town. I don’t want to own two trucks so I have one to drive daily and another to take into the mountains or camping.

My fleet sales guys think the rating on the Hummer EV is way low and conservative. They’re saying 1450lb cargo capacity to keep the listed GVWR under 10,500. At > 10,500 the truck needs extra DOT tags even if owned and operated personally in most places. In reality the thing is a beast and will almost certainly handle a lot more. ...in theory. Still some questions watching all the videos of the truck accelerating and the rear squat as it happens. They’re probably leaving the rear suspension soft in WTF mode to maximize HP to the road... hopefully.

Tow capacity and range are still my number one concern with the Hummer. I need a legit 200 miles with the trailer to make the truck viable for about 15% of my driving. Daily driving it around town most of the time is a non-issue with range, trailer or not.
If you want 200 miles towing it better be a single axle airstream you are towing? Towing with an EV typically falls in the middle of 2X to 3X higher consumption. See a Tesla tow which are the most efficient Ev's on the road...

 

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Hmmm... Perhaps. I think it is till a wait, but will be here before we realize it. The Ford ticks all the boxes except range. Cargo capacity is a touch low, but I also trust that I can push it a bit the couple times I will in the time I own it. I’ve owned dozens of fleet and personal trucks and that’s the one thing Ford and GM/Chevy do best — build them tough and rate them conservatively. It really comes down to range while towing when I’m out of town. I don’t want to own two trucks so I have one to drive daily and another to take into the mountains or camping.

My fleet sales guys think the rating on the Hummer EV is way low and conservative. They’re saying 1450lb cargo capacity to keep the listed GVWR under 10,500. At > 10,500 the truck needs extra DOT tags even if owned and operated personally in most places. In reality the thing is a beast and will almost certainly handle a lot more. ...in theory. Still some questions watching all the videos of the truck accelerating and the rear squat as it happens. They’re probably leaving the rear suspension soft in WTF mode to maximize HP to the road... hopefully.

Tow capacity and range are still my number one concern with the Hummer. I need a legit 200 miles with the trailer to make the truck viable for about 15% of my driving. Daily driving it around town most of the time is a non-issue with range, trailer or not.
If you want 200 miles towing it better be a single axle airstream you are towing? Towing with an EV typically falls in the middle of 2X to 3X higher consumption. See a Tesla tow which are the most efficient Ev's on the road...

Rivian has said on their website that if you're using the R1T to tow at max capacity (11,000 pounds) expect range to be cut in half.

The R1T will have a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs. The R1S will have a towing capacity of 7,700 lbs. Similar to a conventional vehicle, range is affected by towing. Hauling 11,000 lbs will reduce range by about 50%.

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Rivian has said on their website that if you're using the R1T to tow at max capacity (11,000 pounds) expect range to be cut in half.

The R1T will have a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs. The R1S will have a towing capacity of 7,700 lbs. Similar to a conventional vehicle, range is affected by towing. Hauling 11,000 lbs will reduce range by about 50%.

A lot of the towing range loss varies on all the other conditions, trailer shape, trailer rolling resistance, topography of your route, weather conditions, and other variables. Rivian's 50% loss of range estimate might be using an EPA loop and not necessarily all highway, at 70 mph. My experience is 50% is an optimistic estimate, start adding other variables and 60-70% range loss will happen, and in mountainous terrain, all bets are off.
 

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Someone needs to electrify the trailers to provide spare power. Yes I know that will reduce the weight capacity but towing seems to be the Achilles heel for electric vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Someone needs to electrify the trailers to provide spare power. Yes I know that will reduce the weight capacity but towing seems to be the Achilles heel for electric vehicles.
Yes, to have a serious tow vehicle, we need the next evolution of battery tech, it's just energy density problem, a tank of diesel in an HD pickup has + or - 10 Hummer battery packs of energy stored, So even though the Duramax diesel is only about 30% thermally efficient on an average drive, it still provides much more usable energy to pull the trailer than even a monster battery pack can. EV's can make up a little ground using regen braking, but this problem is with all EV's until we get to 400 wh/kg battery energy density when EV's and Ice will equal out. Right now we are somewhere around 150 wh/kg.

 
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