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Nice, good idea for them to hedge their bets versus all in on Rivian as with Rivian's stock plunge, and further pain ahead, they are cash fine for maybe one more year.
 

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Nice, good idea for them to hedge their bets versus all in on Rivian as with Rivian's stock plunge, and further pain ahead, they are cash fine for maybe one more year.
Clearly, you do not know how to read an earnings report or balance sheet, Rivian had $18B in cash last quarter and burned $1B doing the quarter, I would expect a bit more cash burn in Q1, so they like still have more then $16B in cash currently with production ramping. Lucid is the one to worry about in a year, Rivian can go several years at current cash burn levels before they need to raise money again.
 

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Tom is going to keep riding the Rivian horse no matter what. Stating Lucid, backed by the Saudi’s, may be in trouble in a year, surprises me though. I would think their international ties and DEEP pockets would mean they are more poised for success than Rivian. What is your thought process Tom?
 

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Tom is going to keep riding the Rivian horse no matter what. Stating Lucid, backed by the Saudi’s, may be in trouble in a year, surprises me though. I would think their international ties and DEEP pockets would mean they are more poised for success than Rivian. What is your thought process Tom?
For Rivian the problem is only supply chain, and production, they have over 200K units of demand. Cash, Right now Rivian has a market cap of $19B, and has $18B in cash, that means the market is giving no value for Rivian's $4B factory, order backlog, or IP, I think that is an incorrect valuation. On the balance sheet, Rivian has more assets than the total valuation of their stock.

On Lucid, They have 1 product that is well engineered, but tremendously expensive, much smaller order backlog, and only $5B in cash on hand. Lucid also only has a tiny factory with no stamping ability, etc, and needs to spend big to gain that. Yes, the Saudis could put in more money, but I don't think they will unless Lucid shows to have a handle on production, and more than 1 product. Lucid also has 1 giant problem, its a SPAC, that is already a year in, so in another year has to be bought out or refinanced, this is a complicated issue for a company that is sure to be losing money for many years to come. If the economy gets worse, and Lucid struggles, the Saudi's may have to buy it out and go private in a year, or lose in BK.
 

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Amazon probably likes the range of the BrightDrop vehicles. Come winter the Rivian vehicles will be under a hundred miles of range. Probably still enough range, but depending on the city it might be some range anxiety.
The range is all determined by the size of the battery pack, fleet buyers will want the pack, and price tailored to their use case. Like a van intended for city route will have less battery and more payload, a van for rural will have more battery and less payload.
 

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The range is all determined by the size of the battery pack, fleet buyers will want the pack, and price tailored to their use case. Like a van intended for city route will have less battery and more payload, a van for rural will have more battery and less payload.
That's what's nice about GM moduler approach. Range is just a matter of how many modules are installed. Rivians pack design isn't nearly as flexible.
 

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That's what's nice about GM moduler approach. Range is just a matter of how many modules are installed. Rivians pack design isn't nearly as flexible.
I am not sure what Rivian's pack looks like in the van, its different then the R1T, but with cylindrical cells its easy to set up a different config. I would think Amazon told Rivian what they wanted for Range. Rivian van looks a lot better too. Brightdrop said the average Fed Ex is 120 miles a day
 

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I am not sure what Rivian's pack looks like in the van, its different then the R1T, but with cylindrical cells its easy to set up a different config. I would think Amazon told Rivian what they wanted for Range. Rivian van looks a lot better too. Brightdrop said the average Fed Ex is 120 miles a day
Per GM's Brightdrop Zevo 600 order guide, it comes standard with the 20-module Ultium pack. That means just 4 modules less than the Hummer's so probably has about 175 kWh usable. The 600 is the van GM just drove for 250 miles on a single charge between NYC and DC. Rivian's equivalent would require their max pack, which it appears they aren't yet producing. The Zevo also is AWD standard with a FWD primary drive unit and the Ultium small induction motor secondary RWD, which keeps the delivery floor low and flat. And a photo of a 600 being assembled shows it has the same cabin HVAC refrigerant heating/cooling coil heat pump connections that @Dark-Fx's frunk photo showed, meaning better winter cabin heating and winter range. It is a compelling E-delivery van, already temporarily in small-volume construction at Kuka's MI facility and scheduled for high-volume production this Nov. at CAMI.
 

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Per GM's Brightdrop Zevo 600 order guide, it comes standard with the 20-module Ultium pack. That means just 4 modules less than the Hummer's so probably has about 175 kWh usable. The 600 is the van GM just drove for 250 miles on a single charge between NYC and DC. Rivian's equivalent would require their max pack, which it appears they aren't yet producing. The Zevo also is AWD standard with a FWD primary drive unit and the Ultium small induction motor secondary RWD, which keeps the delivery floor low and flat. And a photo of a 600 being assembled shows it has the same cabin HVAC refrigerant heating/cooling coil heat pump connections that @Dark-Fx's frunk photo showed, meaning better winter cabin heating and winter range. It is a compelling E-delivery van, already temporarily in small-volume construction at Kuka's MI facility and scheduled for high-volume production this Nov. at CAMI.
BrightDrop vans are primarily FWD, optionally AWD.

I think the rivian van has their 135 kWh pack from the R1T, and its a 15% bigger truck, hence less range
 

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The Zevo 600 will likely always come standard with AWD. We have to let go of what we know about light passenger EVs when discussing commercial Class 3 EV city delivery van drive trains. The 600 as-spec’ed is optimal for this duty, regardless of expected road-conditions. Here’s why:
  • The 600 has 11,000 lb max GVWR including a 2,200 lb payload. That’s Hummer territory. It carries a full-size Hummer SUV 20-module pack, probably weighing 2,500 lb. But instead of 1,000 HP, it only has 300 HP, using the Ultium EV 180 kW FWD and 62 kW RWD drive units. Same as what likely will go into an Equinox AWD. Back-of-the-envelope 0-60 mph calc using the spec’ed gear ratios, etc. suggests about 11 seconds. This is no over-powered vehicle. Without the RWD supplementing the FWD, it likely could be considered “under-powered”.
  • City/suburban EV delivery vans don’t typically do a lot of highway miles. They realize optimal range efficiency when they can recovery maximum regenerative brake energy during their normal drive cycle: Drive from distribution center to delivery zone. Accelerate for 100 feet, brake for 100 feet. Stop. Repeat 200 times. With 11,000 lbs spread out on a 15’ wheelbase, you can’t just rely on the front axle alone to handle 100% braking and regen duty. The rear axle has to contribute at least 30% to maintain proper dynamic balance. You want to capture every wH of that braking energy. Therein, add a small RWD drive unit.
  • GM’s Ultium AWD assist drive unit is dirt cheap. A 62 kW induction motor (no expensive permanent magnets). It appears to have a co-axial output shaft configuration similar to the Bolt’s (and Lucid’s) to simplify half-shaft installation and minimize drive unit volume. It does not appear to use Lucid’s Swiss-watch-precision coaxial planetary gear arrangement though, but less-expensive double-reduction helical gears off to one side.
  • When in highway-mode, the FWD can propel the van and the RWD unit largely gets out of the way. With an non-magnetic induction rotor, the inverter can turn “off”, letting the rotor free-spin. The only additional energy losses are rotor windage and internal bearing and gear tooth friction losses.
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The Zevo 600 will likely always come standard with AWD. We have to let go of what we know about light passenger EVs when discussing commercial Class 3 EV city delivery van drive trains. The 600 as-spec’ed is optimal for this duty, regardless of expected road-conditions. Here’s why:
  • The 600 has 11,000 lb max GVWR including a 2,200 lb payload. That’s Hummer territory. It carries a full-size Hummer SUV 20-module pack, probably weighing 2,500 lb. But instead of 1,000 HP, it only has 300 HP, using the Ultium EV 180 kW FWD and 62 kW RWD drive units. Same as what likely will go into an Equinox AWD. Back-of-the-envelope 0-60 mph calc using the spec’ed gear ratios, etc. suggests about 11 seconds. This is no over-powered vehicle. Without the RWD supplementing the FWD, it likely could be considered “under-powered”.
  • City/suburban EV delivery vans don’t typically do a lot of highway miles. They realize optimal range efficiency when they can recovery maximum regenerative brake energy during their normal drive cycle: Drive from distribution center to delivery zone. Accelerate for 100 feet, brake for 100 feet. Stop. Repeat 200 times. With 11,000 lbs spread out on a 15’ wheelbase, you can’t just rely on the front axle alone to handle 100% braking and regen duty. The rear axle has to contribute at least 30% to maintain proper dynamic balance. You want to capture every wH of that braking energy. Therein, add a small RWD drive unit.
  • GM’s Ultium AWD assist drive unit is dirt cheap. A 62 kW induction motor (no expensive permanent magnets). It appears to have a co-axial output shaft configuration similar to the Bolt’s (and Lucid’s) to simplify half-shaft installation and minimize drive unit volume. It does not appear to use Lucid’s Swiss-watch-precision coaxial planetary gear arrangement though, but less-expensive double-reduction helical gears off to one side.
  • When in highway-mode, the FWD can propel the van and the RWD unit largely gets out of the way. With an non-magnetic induction rotor, the inverter can turn “off”, letting the rotor free-spin. The only additional energy losses are rotor windage and internal bearing and gear tooth friction losses. View attachment 2271

When you are talking about cost of AWD units in an EV the motor itself is the smallest part of the cost. Inverter, half shafts, hubs, mounts, all the wiring/ hardware, etc.... Brightdrop AWD vans if well engineered would have a solid rear e-axle with 200 HP, and a 62 kW booster axle in the front. Solid E-Axle rear has many benefits, cheaper, stronger, less parts , allows cheaper (and more durable) leaf spring suspension, but the biggest thing is packaging under a van its the tightest in the areas it needs to be.
 
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