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450 miles?

2198 Views 17 Replies 7 Participants Last post by azbill, Aug 17, 2021

Shaved Ice

Discussion Starter · Aug 13, 2021

Inside GMC HUMMER EV’S battery technology

Anyone else catch her saying the current battery technology can produce up to 450 miles of range based on configuration? She says it right after going though all of the ways the batteries can be configured with the double stack Hummer being the largest configuration. This portion starts about halfway through.

With 350 miles being the current publicly released range, I hope this is another example of Al’s motto of “under promise, over deliver” (or something like that).

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Tom E-Tron

· #2 · Aug 13, 2021

Shaved Ice said:
Inside GMC HUMMER EV’S battery technology

Anyone else catch her saying the current battery technology can produce up to 450 miles of range based on configuration? She says it right after going though all of the ways the batteries can be configured with the double stack Hummer being the largest configuration. This portion starts about halfway through.

With 350 miles being the current publicly released range, I hope this is another example of Al’s motto of “under promise, over deliver” (or something like that).

She is talking about the Ultium platform (think Silverado EV), not the HummerEV specifically. With the HummerEV aerodynamics I expect right around 350 miles of EPA range (less on a straight freeway run @65 mph, and much less if you drive 75-85 mph), assuming the battery is 200 kWh. If the battery has more capacity, more range is possible, but I do not think GM massively understated their range on the HummerEV.

Realistically, because you do not get 0-100% effective use typically, if I am planning a highway road trip, I figure I will be charging every 200 miles, dropping to about 100 miles with a trailer. I think in the Hummer Ev your trip will go faster if you drive slower, but that will be hard to do in the Hummer Ev, with such an awesome looking truck it will be hard to putt putt in the slow lane, so plan extra charging stops. Not much different then earlier Hummers stopping for gas, they did not go far on a tank of fuel.

Bboozer1

· #3 · Aug 13, 2021

With 450 that would be fantastic for my worries on longer day trips... I would prefer to not have to spend a "planned charge" on some of these... Specifically college football where we have to leave early in the morning to get there for kick off and then at the end of a long day we just want to get home and a shower and in bed... My round trip for this would be close to 300 miles and the extra range sure would be a good reserve

Tom E-Tron

· #4 · Aug 13, 2021

Bboozer1 said:
With 450 that would be fantastic for my worries on longer day trips... I would prefer to not have to spend a "planned charge" on some of these... Specifically college football where we have to leave early in the morning to get there for kick off and then at the end of a long day we just want to get home and a shower and in bed... My round trip for this would be close to 300 miles and the extra range sure would be a good reserve

A 300 mile trip as I told you before would be really stretching in perfect conditions, if it's hot or cold, or you drive spirited, it's not likely to be possible.

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MattF

· #5 · Aug 13, 2021

Shaved Ice said:
Inside GMC HUMMER EV’S battery technology

Anyone else catch her saying the current battery technology can produce up to 450 miles of range based on configuration? She says it right after going though all of the ways the batteries can be configured with the double stack Hummer being the largest configuration. This portion starts about halfway through.

With 350 miles being the current publicly released range, I hope this is another example of Al’s motto of “under promise, over deliver” (or something like that).

What I have not been able to figure out is what vehicle is supposed to get that 450 mile range. The new Silverado is supposed to hit at 400 miles. So that exhausts our double stacked battery trucks (assuming the Sierra will the same in that regard) as candidates for the range.

The new SUVs, like the Cadillac Escalade EV, I don’t think would be 100 miles more than the Hummer truck and 150 miles more than the Hummer SUV. Yes there are some confounding factors in there, like the relatively short wheelbase of the Hummer SUV, but the math doesn’t seem to add up. Maybe the Escalade will be that much more aerodynamic and lighter to make that much if a difference.

The only thing that comes to mind is the Cadillac Celestiq as it supposedly is pretty large (and thus should get a decent amount of batteries), should be a lot more aerodynamic than the trucks (but probably less than the new EQS), a lot lighter, etc. But, some publications think it will be only 300 miles which would be disappointing for a 200k car.

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Tom E-Tron

· #6 · Aug 13, 2021

MattF said:
What I have not been able to figure out is what vehicle is supposed to get that 450 mile range. The new Silverado is supposed to hit at 400 miles. So that exhausts our double stacked battery trucks (assuming the Sierra will the same in that regard) as candidates for the range.

The new SUVs, like the Cadillac Escalade EV, I don’t think would be 100 miles more than the Hummer truck and 150 miles more than the Hummer SUV. Yes there are some confounding factors in there, like the relatively short wheelbase of the Hummer SUV, but the math doesn’t seem to add up. Maybe the Escalade will be that much more aerodynamic and lighter to make that much if a difference.

The only thing that comes to mind is the Cadillac Celestiq as it supposedly is pretty large (and thus should get a decent amount of batteries), should be a lot more aerodynamic than the trucks (but probably less than the new EQS), a lot lighter, etc. But, some publications think it will be only 300 miles which would be disappointing for a 200k car.

GM said the Silverado will get > 400 miles of range.. Not sure if that is 401, or 450, we will have to wait and see.

SUV's will likely have less range , especially if they have shorter wheelbases and smaller batteries like the Hummer SUV.

Celestiq has a single stack battery, nowhere near 200 kWh capacity. It is much more aerodynamic than the trucks.

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MattF

· #7 · Aug 13, 2021

Tom E-Tron said:
GM said the Silverado will get > 400 miles of range.. Not sure if that is 401, or 450, we will have to wait and see.

SUV's will likely have less range , especially if they have shorter wheelbases and smaller batteries like the Hummer SUV.

Celestiq has a single stack battery, nowhere near 200 kWh capacity. It is much more aerodynamic than the trucks.

Correct. That’s what’s got me confused on what the 450 mile vehicle will be. From those early battery pack renderings of the various options, I think the Celestiq was shown as one with the horizontally stacked batteries and not the vertical ones.

Tom E-Tron

· #8 · Aug 13, 2021

MattF said:
Correct. That’s what’s got me confused on what the 450 mile vehicle will be. From those early battery pack renderings of the various options, I think the Celestiq was shown as one with the horizontally stacked batteries and not the vertical ones.

Ya, that is a less dense configuration because you get less cells in each module, but the modules are similar size is all dimensions except height.

Celestiq I would think is going to have < or = 400 miles of range, but massive power. It's also appears heavy, as it's a big, luxurious car (maybe all aluminum?) Being low production GM might also try to show off new chassis technologies on Celestiq, It could possibly have die cast magnesium in the structure? I have been hearing some very credible rumors that GM is playing with some very exotic materials in the upcoming Z06 Corvette, So GM might have laid off the accountants, and letting the engineers and enthusiast make the decisions for a change. HAHA! Think about it though, GM is on a roll developing some very desirable enthusiast cars I do not think would have been green lighted before Mary Barra. Started with the Camaro ZL1 1LE, Then C8, and now the HummerEV, and Blackwing Cadillacs. GM is letting it all hang out in some ways.

Also the only reason I am not 100% on the HummerEV range being right at 350 miles, is GM might have been slow playing the battery size (all they guided is it is over 200 kWh), it is possible that is a 225 or 250 kWh pack, which would make the vehicle weight make more sense, but if its 200kWh that would only be 571 wh/mi of consumption which would be amazing for a vehicle that big, and not an aerodynamically optimized design, big tires, etc. I have always been thinking it will be more like 650 wh/mi, and closer to 500 wh/mi on the loaded SilveradoEV.

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MCH

· #9 · Aug 13, 2021

Bboozer1 said:
With 450 that would be fantastic for my worries on longer day trips... I would prefer to not have to spend a "planned charge" on some of these... Specifically college football where we have to leave early in the morning to get there for kick off and then at the end of a long day we just want to get home and a shower and in bed... My round trip for this would be close to 300 miles and the extra range sure would be a good reserve

As @Tom E-Tron pointed out, highway range will be significantly less than the EPA range. If the Hummer is expected to get 350 miles of EPA range, highway range at 75 mph will be well below 300, possibly closer to 200 considering the poor aerodynamics of the massive truck. And keep in mind you will never drive 100% to 0% on a long highway trip. The 350 mile EPA range estimate is from full charge to 0% charge. On a trip, you will stop to charge at around 10%, max out at around 80%. So your real range will be 70% of what you can get on a full charge, as long as you are charging 10% to 80% at charging stops. So 200 miles of highway range is probably realistic.

Welcome to the EV world, where highway range is always worse than city range. Not what the typical car buyer is used to.

That said, put a 200 kWh battery in a smaller, aerodynamic vehicle, and you could very possibly exceed 400 miles of highway range at 75 mph. When will a company produce such a car? The Lucid can exceed 400 miles on the highway with its 113 kWh battery, but it is a sedan and very aerodynamic. The Lucid has set the efficiency bar pretty high, higher than Tesla - assuming their production cars match what their prototypes were able to do. The Lucid also costs more than the Hummer - a lot more.

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Tom E-Tron

· #10 · Aug 13, 2021

MCH said:
As @Tom E-Tron pointed out, highway range will be significantly less than the EPA range. If the Hummer is expected to get 350 miles of EPA range, highway range at 75 mph will be well below 300, possibly closer to 200 considering the poor aerodynamics of the massive truck. And keep in mind you will never drive 100% to 0% on a long highway trip. The 350 mile EPA range estimate is from full charge to 0% charge. On a trip, you will stop to charge at around 10%, max out at around 80%. So your real range will be 70% of what you can get on a full charge, as long as you are charging 10% to 80% at charging stops. So 200 miles of highway range is probably realistic.

Welcome to the EV world, where highway range is always worse than city range. Not what the typical car buyer is used to.

That said, put a 200 kWh battery in a smaller, aerodynamic vehicle, and you could very possibly exceed 400 miles of highway range at 75 mph. When will a company produce such a car? The Lucid can exceed 400 miles on the highway with its 113 kWh battery, but it is a sedan and very aerodynamic. The Lucid has set the efficiency bar pretty high, higher than Tesla - assuming their production cars match what their prototypes were able to do. The Lucid also costs more than the Hummer - a lot more.

Ya, people new to EV's have to understand the physics involved, the energy in the battery is a fixed amount, and if you go faster, you will stop more to charge. Drive 55 and likely you can exceed EPA range, 58 mph is often the breakover point. Lucid, Tesla, and the Taycan 4s take a much smaller penalty at high speed due to aerodynamics (Taycan also has a 2 speed rear drive unit which helps significantly over 65mph). Even in my Model Y though, at 80 mph, consumption is noticeably higher.

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MCH

· #11 · Aug 13, 2021

Tom E-Tron said:
Ya, people new to EV's have to understand the physics involved, the energy in the battery is a fixed amount, and if you go faster, you will stop more to charge. Drive 55 and likely you can exceed EPA range, 58 mph is often the breakover point. Lucid, Tesla, and the Taycan 4s take a much smaller penalty at high speed due to aerodynamics (Taycan also has a 2 speed rear drive unit which helps significantly over 65mph). Even in my Model Y though, at 80 mph, consumption is noticeably higher.

And companies who market charging speed downplay the fact that you can charge pretty quickly up to 80%, and then things slow down. Sometimes it slows down a lot, depending on the vehicle. You can fast charge beyond 80%, but you will spend a lot more time waiting. It is better just to disconnect and get back on the road. The exception could be a stop for lunch or dinner.

I have to admit a couple years ago I assumed when an EV EPA rating said 350 miles, that was highway range, just like all my ICE cars. It was very disappointing to learn the truth.

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Tom E-Tron

· #12 · Aug 13, 2021

MCH said:
And companies who market charging speed downplay the fact that you can charge pretty quickly up to 80%, and then things slow down. Sometimes it slows down a lot, depending on the vehicle. You can fast charge beyond 80%, but you will spend a lot more time waiting. It is better just to disconnect and get back on the road. The exception could be a stop for lunch or dinner.

I have to admit a couple years ago I assumed when an EV EPA rating said 350 miles, that was highway range, just like all my ICE cars. It was very disappointing to learn the truth.

I don't do too many road trips over 500 miles, so for me no biggie. I do like 98% of my charging at home. Yes, when you get down to figuring out road trip speed, charger locations and charging curve play most into your decisions. If I had a spot I needed to stretch the range to skip a charging stop, I would just slow down and take the slow lane, other times its better to stop more frequently and for less time on each stop. People new to EV's should really go watch Bjorn Nyland's road trip videos because he does all the calculations and shows what is the best speeds over the right distances to achieve the best result. Sorry in advance for his rambling on and on, but he does know what he is talking about.

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MattF

· #13 · Aug 13, 2021

Tom E-Tron said:
Ya, that is a less dense configuration because you get less cells in each module, but the modules are similar size is all dimensions except height.

Celestiq I would think is going to have < or = 400 miles of range, but massive power. It's also appears heavy, as it's a big, luxurious car (maybe all aluminum?) Being low production GM might also try to show off new chassis technologies on Celestiq, It could possibly have die cast magnesium in the structure? I have been hearing some very credible rumors that GM is playing with some very exotic materials in the upcoming Z06 Corvette, So GM might have laid off the accountants, and letting the engineers and enthusiast make the decisions for a change. HAHA! Think about it though, GM is on a roll developing some very desirable enthusiast cars I do not think would have been green lighted before Mary Barra. Started with the Camaro ZL1 1LE, Then C8, and now the HummerEV, and Blackwing Cadillacs. GM is letting it all hang out in some ways.

Also the only reason I am not 100% on the HummerEV range being right at 350 miles, is GM might have been slow playing the battery size (all they guided is it is over 200 kWh), it is possible that is a 225 or 250 kWh pack, which would make the vehicle weight make more sense, but if its 200kWh that would only be 571 wh/mi of consumption which would be amazing for a vehicle that big, and not an aerodynamically optimized design, big tires, etc. I have always been thinking it will be more like 650 wh/mi, and closer to 500 wh/mi on the loaded SilveradoEV.

I noticed from your list that “our” own @Aloppen was directly involved with the Hummer and the Camaro as well as probably a little indirectly with the Blackwing Cadillacs since he did work on the Alpha platform with Camaro. Which then evolved into the latest Cadillac Alpha 2 cars.

It would be interesting to see what GM could do with a ridiculous budget SUV. Make it very aerodynamic like a new look Futurliner, huge battery, carbon fiber/aluminum/additive manufacturing parts and/or body to make it light. Yes, it would be a ridiculous price and maybe not saleable but more like an engineering exercise! Just dreaming of course…

Back to the Hummer. GM should be able to get there (450 miles) with the gen 2 batteries and maybe a few tweaks here and there to the drivetrain etc. I think they were targeting 2025 for the batteries if I am not mistaken.

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Tom E-Tron

· #14 · Aug 13, 2021

MattF said:
I noticed from your list that “our” own @Aloppen was directly involved with the Hummer and the Camaro as well as probably a little indirectly with the Blackwing Cadillacs since he did work on the Alpha platform with Camaro. Which then evolved into the latest Cadillac Alpha 2 cars.

It would be interesting to see what GM could do with a ridiculous budget SUV. Make it very aerodynamic like a new look Futurliner, huge battery, carbon fiber/aluminum/additive manufacturing parts and/or body to make it light. Yes, it would be a ridiculous price and maybe not saleable but more like an engineering exercise! Just dreaming of course…

Back to the Hummer. GM should be able to get there (450 miles) with the gen 2 batteries and maybe a few tweaks here and there to the drivetrain etc. I think they were targeting 2025 for the batteries if I am not mistaken.

Yes, the second Gen batteries should have twice the energy density, but let's be honest, we have been hearing that for quite a while, and seen no evidence of a miracle battery yet. If those batteries come, would you rather the hummer lose 1500lbs and keep the 350 miles or keep the weight and gain range? Personally I think 350 miles is enough, I would rather take away weight, and make every performance parameter better. Losing weight, everything gets better, not to mention far more payload and towing.

azbill

· #15 · Aug 13, 2021

MCH said:
That said, put a 200 kWh battery in a smaller, aerodynamic vehicle, and you could very possibly exceed 400 miles of highway range at 75 mph.

I was able to get almost 290 miles on my Mach E driving at 75 mph up a 6000 ft elevation change. EPA highway range on mine is 281, combined is 305. I easily get over 325 city driving. Battery is only 88 KWH usable, so it could go 400 with a 125 KWH battery.

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MCH

· #16 · Aug 16, 2021

Tom E-Tron said:
Yes, the second Gen batteries should have twice the energy density, but let's be honest, we have been hearing that for quite a while, and seen no evidence of a miracle battery yet. If those batteries come, would you rather the hummer lose 1500lbs and keep the 350 miles or keep the weight and gain range? Personally I think 350 miles is enough, I would rather take away weight, and make every performance parameter better. Losing weight, everything gets better, not to mention far more payload and towing.

I once told myself that I would not even consider an BEV until one could exceed 400 miles on a charge. That was when I thought 400 miles meant 400 miles of highway range, so that is still my yardstick. Then Rivian came along and I got really excited about a BEV with "400+" miles of range. Of course we still don't know actual EPA range figures for the max pack Rivian (or the others for that matter), but I know understand that the Rivian is not likely to go 400 miles at 75 mph. In fact, very unlikely.

So now I have an order in for a Mach-E, with 270 miles of range - much, much less than my self imposed 400 mile limit. Interestingly I choose the AWD model, instead of the RWD that will get another 35 miles of range (like the one @azbill owns). So while I say range is most important, in this case I thought AWD and a faster 0-60 was more important. Kind of proves your point, @Tom E-Tron.

But I do think the magic threshold of universal acceptance is 400 miles of highway range.

Reactions: 1

zer0t

· #17 · Aug 17, 2021

azbill said:
I was able to get almost 290 miles on my Mach E driving at 75 mph up a 6000 ft elevation change. EPA highway range on mine is 281, combined is 305. I easily get over 325 city driving. Battery is only 88 KWH usable, so it could go 400 with a 125 KWH battery.

I have a Taycan 4s that now says its range is about 337 miles Porsche advertises 199 My real world experience has been 337 or about the same as my model s LR+ which has a rating of 403 The Porsche gets drive very spiritedly. in sport+ you will see some range reduction

Your experience with the Mach E is consistent with reports I've read elsewhere

azbill

· #18 · Aug 17, 2021

zer0t said:
I have a Taycan 4s that now says its range is about 337 miles Porsche advertises 199 My real world experience has been 337 or about the same as my model s LR+ which has a rating of 403 The Porsche gets drive very spiritedly. in sport+ you will see some range reduction

Your experience with the Mach E is consistent with reports I've read elsewhere

I think part of the issue is that Tesla has geared their cars more for low end acceleration, and Ford geared the Mach E for better range but less acceleration. Taycan of course has two gears, so the best of both.

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